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#7542877 Mar 18, 2013 at 09:14 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Guild Officer
354 Posts
As an educator do you see these concepts in your class or course?

Do you see these concept happening outside the classroom and if so where?

How do we bring these into our classrooms or online?

Can Keller's ARCS model assist in this?

twitter @kzenovka
www.center4edupunx
Games MOOC Instructor and Designer
Google + gamesmooc@gmail.com



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#7544865 Mar 18, 2013 at 04:08 PM · Edited 6 years ago
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13 Posts
I do see some of these elements in the online course that I teach, in which students develop a small Web site on a topic of their choice. They get to choose their own topic, and they area able to view each others' sites as they are being developed, which provides them with the joy of sharing both their topic of interest, and their design efforts, as they learn to use the XHTML code in a creative way.

I am not sure yet, though, how to "gamify" this course, or even if it is necessary, based upon the fun that students receive through the current design.

What I would really like to do is develop a game that introduces people to the concept (or rather "non-concept") of non-duality (see my introductory post).

:D
Bob Yavits
Tompkins Cortland Community College
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#7544952 Mar 18, 2013 at 04:24 PM
Artisan
58 Posts
I would like to see much more of these things in my classes. I do try to incorporate them as much as possible but without gamifying my courses it's not easy. Using multigenre projects helps and so does topic choice but I can only take it so far. I see these outside the classroom when students are engaged in gaming, FB, sports etc.. I would like to bring them into the classroom by designing my own experiences for my students. Yes the ARC model can assist in this as it does with any lesson planning.
To each his own game ;)
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#7545832 Mar 18, 2013 at 07:38 PM
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52 Posts
I see all three of these concepts in my Science classes only some of the time and for some of the kids. I see over 130 kids every day so no matter what I do there will be kids who love it, like it, don't care, or hate it. At least I haven't found any ONE thing that will engage all of my students for any period of time. They are here to socialize and Science often gets in the way of that. So when I see a kid in the flow or have a fiero moment when a lab works or when something clicked, I love it! And I appreciate it.

I thought gamifying my classes would bring more fun, flow and fiero more often to more kids. So far what I've tried hasn't worked. It seems that I just don't have that many gamers this year. I mean, I only had two or three of my 84 6th graders know what grinding is when I was referring to their note-taking as grinding so they can have items to craft their public service announcement. I actually had to explain grinding to kids! I couldn't believe it.

I thought that even non-gamers would enjoy thinking of the Science "work" we do through the lens of alternate reality. Even badges and experience points aren't motivating many of my students this year. I need to find out what I'm missing.
Al Gonzalez
Middle School Science Teacher
educatoral.com
Twitter educatoral
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#7547964 Mar 19, 2013 at 09:07 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Guild Officer
187 Posts
@byavits: This is something I struggle with, too: how do I gamify a class that is largely a technical skills class? Like you said, there may be no need to "gamify" a class that already brings enjoyment to students. I do know that, for example, codeacademy has some HTML interactive tutorials with some strong game elements that might work for some of your purposes. I haven't tried it with students myself yet. I teach basic HTML & CSS as well.

Something that I try to remember is that not all games have leaderboard, score systems, and fighting. One of my favorite games, Minecraft, is at its core a building game.

Lleshrad mentioned "topic choice" for students and I've had a lot of success with that, as long as there are some limits set on the topic. I'm sure we could all tell stories about students who went a little too far!

@EducatorAI I've noticed this in my adult learners, too. I do tend to have more gamers in my courses than you do, but I'm surprised at home few are hardcore given the technical field in which I teach. However, just because someone doesn't play video games, that doesn't mean that they don't play games or appreciate some game elements being worked in.

For me, I've worked at noticing what encourages students to be "in the flow", when they hit that "fiero" moment, and find what students consider "fun". Out of the three, what do you consider to be the most difficult? Is there some activity that you use that almost always results in flow -> fiero?
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#7551822 Mar 19, 2013 at 11:29 PM
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@LeeDale - I need to pay more attention to notice what puts my students in the flow and when they hit fiero.

The easy answer is that I get more kids having fun when they're doing labs, creating Glogs, comic books, movies, drawings, etc. Hands on, creative working gets to more kids. I can't do that all the time. We also need to do research, read, and write. I have my students share what they learn on their blogs and there are those who like blogging and get into it.

I do agree that kids who don't play video games still enjoy playing games. I want that enjoyment in my classes everyday. I want all my kids to look forward to coming in for Science everyday.
Al Gonzalez
Middle School Science Teacher
educatoral.com
Twitter educatoral
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#7553619 Mar 20, 2013 at 10:01 AM · Edited 6 years ago
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EducatorAl - "I need to pay more attention to notice what puts my students in the flow and when they hit fiero."

Leedale - "there may be no need to "gamify" a class that already brings enjoyment to students."

I think these are good points, and I would caution also that trying to add game elements like points and badges, etc, as extrinsic motivators to activities that students already find enjoyable and intrinsically motivating can have the opposite effect, and undermine that intrinsic motivation. Jane McGonigal talks about this in her book, and gives the example of how paying someone a really small amount of money for something they wanted to do for you as a favor can actually make doing that favor seem like a ripoff. You undermine the meaningful value they get by doing you something as a friend by paying them what seems like an insultingly small amount of money.
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#7553676 Mar 20, 2013 at 10:15 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Herald
60 Posts
#7553619 grizzlybeals wrote:

I would caution also that trying to add game elements like points and badges, etc, as extrinsic motivators to activities that students already find enjoyable and intrinsically motivating can have the opposite effect, and undermine that intrinsic motivation. Jane McGonigal talks about this in her book, and gives the example of how paying someone a really small amount of money for something they wanted to do for you as a favor can actually make doing that favor seem like a ripoff. You undermine the meaningful value they get by doing you something as a friend by paying them what seems like an insultingly small amount of money.



Dan Pink discusses this as well in his book Drive, which is all about what motivates us and why. Below is his TEDTalk on motivation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y
a.k.a. Tanya Sasser
English Instructor
Jacksonville State University
@TanyaSasser
Remixing College English
“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one who must walk through it.” ~Morpheus, The Matrix
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#7553708 Mar 20, 2013 at 10:24 AM
Herald
60 Posts
Since I've been reading more and more articles and books on the psychology of gaming and game design, I've developed a better understanding of gamers in general and my son in particular. I used to get upset with him when I would say something to him while he was playing a game and he did not respond or even notice that I was there. I used to think he was purposely ignoring me. Now I know that he was just in the flow.

In terms of hard fun, it amazes me how my son will get frustrated and give up so quickly when he's struggling with a concept in school. But when he struggles with a level or task in a game, he'll keep trying until he masters it, even though he gets frustrated. It's this kind of perseverance that I'd like to encourage in my freshman composition students.

To be honest, I did not find the ARCS model as helpful as the other articles, but that may be because I don't have time to go searching for the sources in the bibliography that better explain ARCS.

#7551822 EducatorAl wrote:

@LeeDale - I need to pay more attention to notice what puts my students in the flow and when they hit fiero.


I recently read an article in the Winter issue of Virtual Education Journal that addresses what elements need to be in place in order for players to experience fiero (or at least make it more likely fiero will be achieved). I've hyperlinked to my Evernote clips from the article; you can access the entire article and the entire issue of VEJ at the link at the bottom of the note.

"Achieving Fiero Moments"
a.k.a. Tanya Sasser
English Instructor
Jacksonville State University
@TanyaSasser
Remixing College English
“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one who must walk through it.” ~Morpheus, The Matrix
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#7553738 Mar 20, 2013 at 10:30 AM
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#7553676 Mina ZedWord wrote:


Dan Pink discusses this as well in his book Drive, which is all about what motivates us and why. I think he may even have a TEDTalk about it.



Thanks Mina, I may be confusing the two. My wife read Drive shortly after I read Reality is Broken so they kind of fused together conceptually for me.
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#7553786 Mar 20, 2013 at 10:40 AM
Herald
60 Posts
#7553738 grizzlybeals wrote:

#7553676 Mina ZedWord wrote:


Dan Pink discusses this as well in his book Drive, which is all about what motivates us and why. I think he may even have a TEDTalk about it.



Thanks Mina, I may be confusing the two. My wife read Drive shortly after I read Reality is Broken so they kind of fused together conceptually for me.


I found the TEDTalk and posted it in my comment. But I do think that McGonigal discusses the example that you mention. I know she addresses motivation and the need to achieve balance between intrinsic and extrinsic.
a.k.a. Tanya Sasser
English Instructor
Jacksonville State University
@TanyaSasser
Remixing College English
“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one who must walk through it.” ~Morpheus, The Matrix
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#7553788 Mar 20, 2013 at 10:40 AM
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13 Posts
I am wondering to what extent people think that competition is a necessary element for Fun, Flow and especially Fiero.

I must admit that I have a conscious bias toward cooperation over competition. I did some research on this topic in graduate school, and came up with a few interesting findings. One is that the United States is probably the most competitive society in the world. Another is that cooperation among individuals increases when those individuals are in groups that compete with each other, ie: athletic teams, and also nationalism.

I once had an interesting experience playing ping pong. I and the other player shifted from a model of competition to one of cooperation. Instead of trying to hit the ball in such a way such that the other player could not hit it back, we tried to increase the possibility that the "opponent" could return the ball. For me, at least, the game became much more enjoyable, as instead of competing, the players cooperated, trying to keep the volley going as long as possible.

Another related point came from my grandfather, who was a physical education professor. His master's thesis proposed that the future of physical education would downplay competition, and use athletics as a way to focus upon improving one's self, rather than being "better" than another.

Any thoughts?
Bob Yavits
Tompkins Cortland Community College
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#7554051 Mar 20, 2013 at 11:28 AM
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11 Posts
I'm definitely a co-op player.

I just played a board game based on the Cthulu Mythos called "Arkham Horror" with some friends this past weekend, and it is very almost entirely a cooperative game. It's also very hard, and requires that players strategize and plan during play in order to accomplish the goals set forth at the beginning.

I find those kinds of games to be a lot more enjoyable and worthwhile. Competition is fun too sometimes, but in the end I don't get much out of it personally. Tackling shared goals and celebrating victory with others has always had a lot more appeal to me.
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#7554395 Mar 20, 2013 at 12:33 PM
Herald
60 Posts
#7553788 byavits wrote:

I am wondering to what extent people think that competition is a necessary element for Fun, Flow and especially Fiero.

Any thoughts?



I don't think that competition against another player is necessary. The competition can be with the game itself or some aspect of the game.

In "I Have No Words and I Must Design," Greg Costikyan argues that opposition is one of the defining factors of a game:

Achieving the goal must involve a struggle, i.e. opposition, for it to be worthwhile.


But he also argues that when a game involves multiple players, diplomacy increases the fun of achieving the objective:

Games permit diplomacy if players can assist each other -- perhaps directly, perhaps by combining against a mutual foe.


This diplomacy may not be maintained once the common foe is defeated or, in the case of WoW, diplomacy may be central to obtaining the endgame. But either way, there is opposition/competion in some form.

Costikyan argues that having an objective is not what makes a game fun (although having an objective is a necessary element of a game). What makes the game fun is the the struggle we have to go through to achieve the objective, whether that struggle is against another player or with another player against a common obstacle.
a.k.a. Tanya Sasser
English Instructor
Jacksonville State University
@TanyaSasser
Remixing College English
“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one who must walk through it.” ~Morpheus, The Matrix
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#7554437 Mar 20, 2013 at 12:41 PM
Fiero
26 Posts
#7553708 Mina ZedWord wrote:

In terms of hard fun, it amazes me how my son will get frustrated and give up so quickly when he's struggling with a concept in school. But when he struggles with a level or task in a game, he'll keep trying until he masters it, even though he gets frustrated.



Mina, Fantastic idea. I think about how that sort of struggling fits some of the Asian culture (which does fantastic with the math and sciences). The article I linked to mentioned on how the struggling was a sign of opportunity.

Some would say the instant gratification of our society dampens our ability to succeed as we give up easily. But isn't it amazing that games succeed in taking that instant gratification to another level and by offering positive feedback and rewarding progress aids all gamers to achieve the same end goal. This drives students to see their progress and continuing to try and "better" it.

The extrinsic motivation of grades can actually cause more damage because students sometimes are "too" focused that they miss the point of learning. (refer to Dan Pink)

The fun, flow and fiero in class work comes from Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose. Autonomy keeps the course "fun". What if high stake testing was removed from education - would students still learn? ROWE - how could you hold a job without designated hours? Purpose adds to the flow in keeping you engaged and having a reason to finish the course. And when we talk of Mastery some words that comes to mind are definitely "fierce", "pride", "acknowledgment" (a.k.a. fiero).



"A game is a problem-solving activity, approached with a playful attitude."
~ Jesse Schell ~
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#7554567 Mar 20, 2013 at 01:03 PM · Edited 6 years ago
Fiero
26 Posts
As some have been mentioned, what makes a game fun, while learning isn't (generally).

Because if you stop to think about it isn't education already a very competitive game:
  • Levels - Grade level in school
  • Achievements - Perfect Attendance, Student of the week, student of the year, etc.
  • Competition - Top 10%, Valedictorian, graduation
  • Points - Grades
  • Rewards - College Acceptance and Scholarships
  • etc.

I have never kept motivated to playing a game I was not good at. My wife won't play Monopoly with me because I take all the fun away by being competitive (and happen to be pretty darn good at it).

Our current educational game is "fun" for those who are successful, and those who struggle find it "tiresome and boring". Because we have made out that to struggle means you are "not as good as me". Most everyone here has received graduate degrees, working on them, or have thought about it. Therefore I think it safe to hypothesis that most of us find learning "fun".

Confucius said: "Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes."

Have we made struggling a mistake in our education system, therefore a crime? What makes gaming fun is that struggling is not a mistake (in fact you SHOULD struggle).
"A game is a problem-solving activity, approached with a playful attitude."
~ Jesse Schell ~
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#7554809 Mar 20, 2013 at 01:51 PM · Edited 6 years ago
Guild Officer
354 Posts
#7553708 Mina ZedWord wrote:

To be honest, I did not find the ARCS model as helpful as the other articles, but that may be because I don't have time to go searching for the sources in the bibliography that better explain ARCS. ]



I added the ARCS model in the readings more because instructional designers who have gone through formal training in a College of Education or a instructional design programs using ISPI (International Society for Performance Improvement) or AECT Association for Educational Communication and Technology) mostly likely studied it. I have also found that when I am talking to educators who are new to games it does not take an enormous amount of time to explain that games can provide - Attention, Relevance, Confidence and Success. We'll also discuss it a bit further especially the relevance portion when we looking at ARGs.

There are a few models of instructional design for game-like learning environments. The Games MOOC advisory board and I have worked up a model/process for Alternate Reality Games, but I have not found the "one" model yet. I'm still looking.
twitter @kzenovka
www.center4edupunx
Games MOOC Instructor and Designer
Google + gamesmooc@gmail.com



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#7555168 Mar 20, 2013 at 03:13 PM
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23 Posts
Part of the challenge of traditional schooling is that it's attempting to teach literacy, which as Maryanne Wolf shows in her book Proust and the Squid: The Story and Science of the Reading Brain is a radical rewiring of the brain. As my old professor Greg Ulmer used to say, the pen I'm using cost tens of thousands of dollars (i.e. in tuition costs), for to use it properly you need years and years of training.

From Ulmer's point of view, the age of electracy focuses on pleasure and pain as its measure of value (whereas literacy, the age of science, focuses on whether something is true or false, and orality, the age of religion, focuses on whether something is right or wrong).

Our attempts to graft fun, flow, and fiero (all experienced in the age of electracy) onto literate activities in schooling will depend on the freedom we give to educators to be professionals. Right now, the trend is to turn them into automatons or technicians that deliver content in such a way that test results increase.

It's an interesting transition we are undergoing right now. Economic conditions are forcing us to recognize that schooling has to change, but politicians want to oversimplify the process. I think that these changes are going to happen outside of existing institutional structures (e.g. in MOOCs, by freelance professors and teachers, by non-profits) where practitioners have the freedom to gamify curriculum without worrying about test scores.
____________________________________________________________
Richard Smyth, Ph.D.
http://electrateprofessor.wordpress.com
rsmyth64@yahoo.com

"Perhaps my best years are gone. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now." --Samuel Beckett
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#7555660 Mar 20, 2013 at 04:13 PM · Edited 6 years ago
Guides
561 Posts
I do struggle with this, and some of you brought up the point, does the game have to be competitive for that ultimate "fiero" moment? I believe that the answer is "no" @LeeDale, Minecraft is a cooperative game without competition if the settings are correct, but also there can be competition in that game for resources, you can destroy other's houses (pour lava on them) or whatever if set differently. I think personally some of my own lifetime fiero moments were alone and not in competition. I was searching for something or trying to solve something and all at once I did,

This is a site that ranks game emotions, and fiero is only #7 Top Ten Video Emotions

Bliss, Relief and Naches come in ahead of Fiero, and they define naches as " . . .the emotion of pride in the accomplishments of one’s students or children, referred to by emotion researcher Ekman by the Yiddish term naches. Players seem to really enjoy training their friends and family to play games."

I have where that works when one student is helping another, being the teacher, to do something online with computers in my classroom, or seaching out something ahead of others and then sharing.

I have a picture of me with a Jackalope Mascot, and I hide an "easter egg" in my online syllabus asking what it is and where it was first found and what year. The first to find the information gets a prize (generally a $5 starbucks card from me). They have the Fiero of accomplishment in being first, but also the Naches of explaining to others how to find the information.

And, yes here is the picture, and yes, my hockey jersey commemorative is just gawd-awful, and game worn and part of a charity auction. That mascot looked like Elmo on Crack... team no longer exists.

Link to Jackalope

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#7555918 Mar 20, 2013 at 04:54 PM
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#7554567 Sam G wrote:


Our current educational game is "fun" for those who are successful, and those who struggle find it "tiresome and boring".



There is also the fact that education is not an "opt-in" by students, really. It is mandatory. The odds of people finding fun and play in something they're forced to do is probably less than those situations where they voluntarily opt-in.
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