Notify Message
Forums
#7579325 Mar 25, 2013 at 04:45 PM · Edited over 6 years ago
Guild Officer
354 Posts
Ted Talk - Tom Chatfield: 7 ways games reward the brain

Author summary of video

1) Use an experience system
2) Multiple long and short term aims
3) Reward for effort
4) Rapid frequent clear feedback
5) Element of uncertainty
6) Window of enhanced attention
7) Other people

Pick any mobile game from last week favorites, Games 4 Change, or one that you always wanted to try. Did you find it rewarding in the 7 ways mentioned in this TED Talk?

If you are looking at mobile game - can you have hard fun, flow and fiero or are you looking instead for reward the brain? Are the mutually exclusive?
twitter @kzenovka
www.center4edupunx
Games MOOC Instructor and Designer
Google + gamesmooc@gmail.com



+0
#7579559 Mar 25, 2013 at 05:37 PM · Edited over 6 years ago
Guides
561 Posts
#7579325 kae wrote:

Ted Talk Tom Chatfield: 7 ways games reward the brain
Author summary of video

1) Use an experience system
2) Multiple long and short term aims
3) Reward for effort
4) Rapid frequent clear feedback
5) Element of uncertainty
6) Window of enhanced attention
7) Other people

Pick any mobile game from last week favorites, Games 4 Change, or one that you always wanted to try. Did you find it rewarding in the 7 ways mentioned in this TED Talk?

If you are looking at mobile game - can you have hard fun, flow and fiero or are you looking instead for reward the brain? Are the mutually exclusive?



I had an interesting experience, I had been playing 4 pic -1 word game and trying to answer more than my friend, but we both topped out at 442 (end of the line] and neither was interested in getting the next version. So while it had 1, 2 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, we became bored one the chances had run out. We enhanced the difficulty by not allowing the buying of hints, we had to earn them. I have been trying to think of why, but can't come up with a reason of us putting it away as quickly as a birthday gift after a few weeks... any answers from the rest of you?

My second was the "Guess the logos" which was going fine and I was earning the "hints" (still am) and it did use 1,2,3,4,5,6 but not any other people involved, finally on one (out of hints, refuse to buy) I looked up "car company logos in Germany" only to find someone had actually posted the answers to ALL of the levels online where I could get instant answers for free. Lost interest in the game. Why complete something by just looking up the answers? At least in this game it lost its FIERO, with answers readily available there was no challenge, the fact it took me a couple of days to figure out Maserati and I had the Fiero of seeing "Correct" and getting a happy "Ding," was keeping me involved.

Were these "hard fun?" to me they were and it wasn't easy. "Flow?" I was certainly emerged in the tasks. There was leveling up but absolutely NO replay value. Yes, there were points for experience, the hints kept you engaged.
Bottom line I think is that if all we are doing in essence is "looking up the answers in the back of the book and filling them in," we will engage no students. However, I really don't think I rewarded my brain., but according to the article in Psychology Today, I did [but not sure I am any better for it, [I should have been doing something productive] and here are the six elements:

1 Anticipate the end-goal
2 Identify the tasks and subtasks
3 Sequence and problem-solve around likely obstacles
4 Block out distractions
5 Get the reward

Maximizing your Brain's Reward

When I wanted some more info on "hard fun" I came across this. Scroll down to the "Cow Checker" really psychologically interesting and explained.

Benjamin Jackson on "Hard Fun" Kae, you may have cited this already, if so I apologize
+0
#7582382 Mar 26, 2013 at 09:40 AM · Edited over 6 years ago
Guild Officer
187 Posts
[quote_post7579325]If you are looking at a mobile game - can you have hard fun, flow and fiero or are you looking instead for reward the brain? Are the mutually exclusive?[/quote_post7579325]

@Grasshopper, I'm going to have to absorb the content in those links! There's a lot there. Both look excellent.

Anyway, I think that hard fun/flow/fiero and the "reward the brain" are different ways of trying to do the same thing: engage students.

Tom Chatfield's talk is related to specifics: game mechanics, gamer analytics, and reward schedules, for example. (By the way, be sure to read the comments below the video...interesting viewpoints).

Hard fun, flow, and fiero are more general. They seem to be states we want to encourage in our students, but they're less where the "rubber meets the road". Agree? Disagree?

Interestingly, I notice that the TED talk Tom Chatfield mentions how games have analytics built into the game. The companies collect the data and analyze it constantly. Learning analytics, mentioned in the 2013 NMC Horizon Report, is said to be about 2-3 years out (page 24). What can we learn from these analytics? When will we have Learning Management Systems (Desire2Learn, Angel, eCourse, etc) that has a true capability for analyzing this information?
+0
#7590019 Mar 27, 2013 at 05:55 PM
Guides
561 Posts
@LeeDale, no surprise they game manufacturers collect data and then change the game, I have seen that in Magic the Gathering where they had gone from "one color" card, then increased it to the point some were "five color" and the feedback must have been "too much!" because now it is down to two to three colors on a card. In MTG you need a "color" of a land card for every 1 of that color that the card needs to be played, when you only have 17 land cards in your 40 card tournament deck, it is darn difficult to get out five different colors when you can only play one a turn, now about D2L:

Desire2Learn is the system that we use at FRCC for augmenting face-to-face or hybrid classes and for fully online. We used Blackboard before that and some were using WebCT before that. . . the new version of D2L (Jan-2013 for our implementation) has some drastic changes that HAVE to be because of the analytics. There are set fields so it shows up well on smart phones and tablets, as well as putting content on the left panel, where students are use to looking to order "jeans" for example on an internet site. Student are happy with the content in one place, or so it seems, they are very happy with the way it looks on tablets and smart phones -- I have had a lot of feedback on that.

I think that we do get feedback from students on the evaluations, but I am not sure that we all know what to add to make our classes better, I do think gamificaition is the answer. I have had some success with leveling up and badging for certain extra work. I think this MOOC helps all try to find the answer to how we make this happen.
+0
#7590496 Mar 27, 2013 at 07:57 PM
Initiate
20 Posts
#7579325 kae wrote:


1) Use an experience system
2) Multiple long and short term aims
3) Reward for effort
4) Rapid frequent clear feedback
5) Element of uncertainty
6) Window of enhanced attention
7) Other people



For some reason, this topic reminds me of Sheldon Cooper playing Words with Friends against Stephen Hawking.

While I did not have an intense rivalry going with friends while playing this particular game, it definitely hit some of the rewards discussed by Chatfield. I think that hard fun (trying to find new words with a limited set + a time limit) coupled with fiero (finding a 72 point word FTW!) definitely feeds into the 7 rewards, particularly reward for effort, rapid feedback, uncertainty, and other people.

But is the reward system mutually exclusive of hard fun, flow, or fiero? I think they must be intertwined at some level. Without the passion and concentration it takes to stay with a game to reach the state of reward, then the game isn't worth playing. And if it isn't worth playing, you'll never get the reward that you expected in the first place.
+0
#7590625 Mar 27, 2013 at 08:33 PM · Edited over 6 years ago
Artisan
58 Posts
#7579325 kae wrote:

Ted Talk - Tom Chatfield: 7 ways games reward the brain

Author summary of video

1) Use an experience system
2) Multiple long and short term aims
3) Reward for effort
4) Rapid frequent clear feedback
5) Element of uncertainty
6) Window of enhanced attention
7) Other people

Pick any mobile game from last week favorites, Games 4 Change, or one that you always wanted to try. Did you find it rewarding in the 7 ways mentioned in this TED Talk?

If you are looking at mobile game - can you have hard fun, flow and fiero or are you looking instead for reward the brain? Are the mutually exclusive?



I think that they are not mutually exclusive you can have fun flow & fiero as well as brain rewards. I also think that not all 7 (especially the other people part) parts of the 7 are necessary for total enjoyment of a game. Example I play the smurfs village a lot but do not have friends that play so I do not have the social piece of the game. Yet, it is one I still love to play.

I also have the same thing going on with We Rule (which I am so disappointed the that the maker has decided not to continue support for)
I have also seen where people playing words with friends no longer play with certain people because the hard fun has become too hard playing with certain people. Maybe to much of the element of uncertainty is not good either.
So maybe some brains only need some rewards while others do not and game play also needs to be differentiated like teaching .
To each his own game ;)
+0
#7593709 Mar 28, 2013 at 01:50 PM
Fiero
26 Posts
1) Use an experience system
2) Multiple long and short term aims
3) Reward for effort
4) Rapid frequent clear feedback
5) Element of uncertainty
6) Window of enhanced attention
7) Other people

I wonder if each of our brains are rewarded differently based (a little like Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligence Theory).

It's interesting because my Distance Education director at UVU hates that theory because it doesn't include domain levels. Meaning, that depending on the learning domain I may be better in one intelligence than another.

Considering we are working in the domain of games I think it is interesting to ask the question: Which of those rewards below excite you the most while you play?

I think for me I don't care as much for 7 as I have never really enjoyed Everquest, WoW mainly because that isn't my cup of tea. Rewards 1,2, 3, and 4 are okay, but really for me my brain loves number 5. I find that uncertainty is the driving force behind every game I play. And for that reason number 6 plays a small role in keeping my attention through showing me that there is uncertainty just around the corner.

I love to find all the hidden "easter eggs" (BTW, happy Easter on Sunday everyone!) Rising the difficulty level really doesn't drive me as I I just want to see what I haven't seen before. Sadly I am that way with movies as well and would rather risk seeing a new movie that might be a flop rather than watch a good trusted movie.

Once the uncertainty (and that could even be "how to play the game") is accomplished my brain wants me to move onto other games. I move through games faster than Don Giovanni does through conquests.

While all 7 rewards are important I think we all have preferences that may determine how much fun, flow and fiero we get out of a game.
"A game is a problem-solving activity, approached with a playful attitude."
~ Jesse Schell ~
+0
#7594395 Mar 28, 2013 at 04:30 PM
Guides
561 Posts
@Sam, I am not much for #7 either, I do like the idea of "easter eggs" and I do put an "Easter egg" in my syllabus which is online, and I do teach in a computer classroom, so the first day I tell them to look over syllabus from beginning to end (Easter Egg is near the end) and lo and behold, finally someone raises their hand with the answer. For this they get "bling" either a t-shirt from the college or a $5 Starbucks card. I have put a picture in of me wearing a Voodoo Lounge Tour 1991-2 T-Shirt for the Rolling Stones and asked them to identify the BAND, the Year and the Name of the Tour. Other times I have used a picture of me standing next to a seven foot "Jackalope" mascot for a hockey team and ask them to identify the creature, where it was first seen and the year. I move through games FAST too, I really like it if it is a Quest and the game finishes. I am not much for Everquest either. I have no problem walking away from a game that is boring me, but I can't seem to walk out of a movie that does the same. Why is that?


+0
#7597974 Mar 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM · Edited over 6 years ago
Herald
60 Posts
I'm going to do some cross-forum Jedi moves here and discuss Minecraft PE in regards to the 7 elements of game-based engagement discussed in the vid (which I really enjoyed; in fact, my entire family listened to it and enjoyed it).

Since I've only been playing MC for a few days (and started after completing week 1 of this MOOC), some of these engagement criteria really stand out to me.

1. There's no progress bar. I measure my progress in two ways: survival and level of security. If I can survive the night, I feel I've made progress. And now that I have a fairly secure place to stay at night, I feel I've made significant progress in terms of being able to advance in the game, even if I die (my supply chest is well stocked).


Our supply chest is stocked in case of death by tasasser, on Flickr

2. Short and long term aims short term is to survive and locate food and materials. Long term is to not have to spend so much time and energy on short-term survival (I need more crops, more supplies in my chest, and some animals to farm).

3. Reward all effort: I don't feel rewarded when I spend a lot of time and effort gathering materials and food, only to be killed by a creeper or zombie (and lose everything I've worked so hard for). But this did teach me to store excess supplies in my chest. Also, these kinds of failure make me feel really happy when I manage to make it home with materials or when I find some really good materials like coal.

4. Feedback: my health improves when I find food; I die if I'm not vigilant enough or don't shelter in place when night falls. Pretty clear and immediate feedback.

5. Uncertainty: you never know where materials are (we found a supply of cobblestone under our fort) or when you'll find them (I found coal on a sheep-hunting expedition). Some trees have apples, some don't. Night always surprises me and you never know when/where you'll run into creepers, zombies, or spiders or how many there will be.


Cobblestone quarry under our fort by tasasser, on Flickr


6. Enhanced engagement: my son is much better than me at remembering where things are and how to get back home and I'm much better at learning from mistakes and using my new knowledge to go further out in search of materials (and I'm not as afraid of dying as I used to be because I have a well stocked supply chest). Together we make a good team.

7. Other people: I'm having much more fun playing now that he and I work collaboratively than I did when I was playing it alone. We play to each other's strengths and can divvy up duties so we get more done. If one of us gets into trouble, the other can help them out.


We worked together to build a fort with an underground bunker by tasasser, on Flickr

Minecraft doesn't do all seven perfectly, but I keep playing it so it's doing something right.
a.k.a. Tanya Sasser
English Instructor
Jacksonville State University
@TanyaSasser
Remixing College English
“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one who must walk through it.” ~Morpheus, The Matrix
+1
#7598340 Mar 29, 2013 at 01:47 PM
Guild Officer
187 Posts
#7594395 grasshopper98 wrote:

I have no problem walking away from a game that is boring me, but I can't seem to walk out of a movie that does the same. Why is that?



Interesting! I'm way more likely to walk out of a movie. I can't control the movie, after all. Of course, that probably means I'm a control freak. :P
+0
#7598431 Mar 29, 2013 at 02:11 PM
Guild Officer
187 Posts
#7597974 Mina ZedWord wrote:


2. Short and long term aims short term is to survive and locate food and materials. Long term is to not have to spend so much time and energy on short-term survival (I need more crops, more supplies in my chest, and some animals to farm).



Creepers Coming to Get Me by Leedale Shepherd, on Flickr
For me, at least in the PC version of Minecraft (seen below), my longterm goals change to building things. Typically things I definitely don't need. :-D

Treehouse in my private server by Leedale Shepherd, on Flickr

Multiple long term goals, to be sure!
+1
#7598753 Mar 29, 2013 at 03:43 PM · Edited over 6 years ago
Guides
561 Posts
Minecraft, Once you get to the point you have a spells table your choice of spells to cast depends the player's current level. Only choices with a cost below, or equal to, the player's current level can be taken. Dying and re-spawning plays havoc with the experience level. It takes quite a while to collect (mine) what you need to build a spells table and the reinforcement around it -- The wall is made of bookcases full of books, takes 9-12 I think. This is one of my worlds with the spells table, the spells table is cool because the book above it always is turning pages. You also get to see one of my pack of dogs, they are always jumping on my storage boxes.


2013-03-29_13.18.01 by grasshopper98, on Flickr

This does increase my long term aims of being able to do things easier and being stronger, nice to have a strong diamond armor too. After all it is "mine" and "craft" LOL

@Leedale, ha no tree house for me, I stick to terra firma, and have big moats and high walls, oh wait, that is how I live in real life! (smile)

My chests are stocked in case of death too! Can't be too much of a "prepper" in Minecraft. The only thing I haven't been successful at is going somewhere in the boat. I can build the boat but end up sinking it and having to swim anyway.
+0
#7599101 Mar 29, 2013 at 05:04 PM
Herald
60 Posts
@Leedale Nice treehouse! I'm going to have to add that to my long term goals.
a.k.a. Tanya Sasser
English Instructor
Jacksonville State University
@TanyaSasser
Remixing College English
“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one who must walk through it.” ~Morpheus, The Matrix
+0
#7603319 Mar 30, 2013 at 07:33 PM · Edited over 6 years ago
Initiate
35 Posts
The prompts for this week's discussions have been hard for me to contribute to on account of A) not playing mobile games myself, and B) not having a great deal of smartphones in my cooperating teacher's classroom.

I WILL say that I found the following games quite interested in terms of design and how I felt about playing them:

Shadow Era:
Modeled on the Magic the Gathering card game, I found myself able to play most games in about 15-20 min, which didn't take a great deal of time. What I noticed was that I kept playing the game to see what would happen next, just like Tom Chatfield's #5 "Element of Uncertainty."


Shadow Era by MagisterMrP, on Flickr

Roads of Rome II:
Got this gem free from the AppsGonefree app. At least as far as I've progressed, there isn't a great deal of historic accuracy in terms of the story, but was an entertaining game nonetheless. I soon noticed that same "hook" of rewarding the brain, #5 "Element of Uncertainty."


Roads of Rome by MagisterMrP, on Flickr

All this has prompted me to re-think the platform of gaming in my classroom. Like all technology I use (e.g. Google Form exit slips), I also have a physical version for the students without a device. I'd like to create gaming mechanics able to exist in the physical world before using technology as enhancements.
Latin Teacher
magisterp.com
MOOC III Week 2 Artisan
MOOC III Week 4 Collabrateur
+0
#7604228 Mar 31, 2013 at 01:01 AM
Guild Officer
187 Posts
#7599101 Mina ZedWord wrote:

@Leedale Nice treehouse! I'm going to have to add that to my long term goals.



Thank you! My sister and mom are very sick of gathering wood and tree leaves, believe me. :)
+0
#7604236 Mar 31, 2013 at 01:05 AM
Guild Officer
187 Posts
#7603319 MagisterP wrote:


All this has prompted me to re-think the platform of gaming in my classroom. Like all technology I use (e.g. Google Form exit slips), I also have a physical version for the students without a device. I'd like to create gaming mechanics able to exist in the physical world before using technology as enhancements.



Awesome screenshots, by the way!

I've noticed that a lot of mobile games use a small amount of uncertainty to hook players. It's like gambling on a very small scale.

Now, this is a random thought (brought up by MagisterP mentioning using Google Forms): I wonder if a game (or something that looks like a game) could be made using the Google Docs tools? Or rather, I'm sure one could be made, but what could it look/act like?
+1
#7605371 Mar 31, 2013 at 11:09 AM · Edited over 6 years ago
Curator
29 Posts
#7604236 Leedale wrote:

[quote_post7603319 user=1005256]..Now, this is a random thought (brought up by MagisterP mentioning using Google Forms): I wonder if a game (or something that looks like a game) could be made using the Google Docs tools? Or rather, I'm sure one could be made, but what could it look/act like?



jeopardy template here in google docs; change the answers and questions :)

I found that template after doing some heavy duty google searching. There were dragons, sure. Some Flickr fairies made it challenging to share. However, I won or as they say The Day is Mine!


jeopardy_template by finneycanhelp, on Flickr
--
Michael Finney - "Always Striving To Serve You Better Every Day"
www.SmilingSoftwareSolutions.com
+0
#7605662 Mar 31, 2013 at 12:39 PM
Initiate
35 Posts
#7604236 Leedale wrote:


Now, this is a random thought (brought up by MagisterP mentioning using Google Forms): I wonder if a game (or something that looks like a game) could be made using the Google Docs tools? Or rather, I'm sure one could be made, but what could it look/act like?



Oh, why certainly! The Beta version of Operation Lapis was done using Google Forms completely. For example, the students' character sheets were simple spreadsheets and students were given "viewing" rights.

The only issue in using Google Tools is that the presentation is a bit limited in terms of graphics. I don't know where I saw the links (another post, Horizon report?), but once we get into actually designing our game, there are free apps that allow you to design an app (with a "smoother" interface vs. Google Tools).

Thus, I think that using Google Tools for reporting (feedback, progress, "grades," etc) could be a key component to the games we design.
Latin Teacher
magisterp.com
MOOC III Week 2 Artisan
MOOC III Week 4 Collabrateur
+0
#7608675 Apr 01, 2013 at 07:32 AM
Herald
60 Posts
#7604236 Leedale wrote:



Now, this is a random thought (brought up by MagisterP mentioning using Google Forms): I wonder if a game (or something that looks like a game) could be made using the Google Docs tools? Or rather, I'm sure one could be made, but what could it look/act like?



I'm currently in the process of trying to do just that! I'm building the Interactive Fiction game my FYC students will play next Fall. Some of the puzzles they'll have to solve will be reading quizzes. I'm creating these using Google Forms so I can hyperlink to them within the game. I've programmed the quiz to be self-grading and to email the student upon submission. If the student earns a 70% or better on the quiz, their email message contains a code word that they can input into the game to unlock a resource.

I'm also considering using Google Spreadsheet as the tool for creating students' "progress bars" and the class-wide leader board.
a.k.a. Tanya Sasser
English Instructor
Jacksonville State University
@TanyaSasser
Remixing College English
“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one who must walk through it.” ~Morpheus, The Matrix
+0
#7609048 Apr 01, 2013 at 09:27 AM
Guild Officer
187 Posts
It really sounds like, then, that the Google Docs could be useful for several of the points in the list:

1) Use an experience system
2) Multiple long and short term aims
3) Reward for effort
4) Rapid frequent clear feedback
5) Element of uncertainty
6) Window of enhanced attention
7) Other people

It looks especially like Google Docs (Drive, whatever they're calling it this month) works for rapid frequent clear feedback. I like your idea, Mina, about using a quiz to get students further in your IF.

I've read about systems that have those kinds of mechanics built in (Edmodo for example), but I'm always leery about introducing too many different regular websites for students to use.
+0